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	<title>Comments on: Picking Sides: Science or Spirituality</title>
	<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/</link>
	<description>a tongue-in-cheek quest for understanding...</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1</generator>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-717</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-717</guid>
		<description>Thanks for trying to explain Halina.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for trying to explain Halina.</p>
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		<title>By: Halina - Busting Loose</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-714</link>
		<dc:creator>Halina - Busting Loose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-714</guid>
		<description>Hi Jenny!

Oh my, these are big questions... they don't get much bigger, do they? :-)

As I see it, the only objective fact/reality is Infinite Consciousness and from my present perspective my understanding of it is - well, quite finite! :lol:
My role as in individual...hm... there are stages when my job is to act as separated from Consciousness and experience illusion and there are stages when my role is to re-connect with Consciousness and both create and experience illusion...

After spending some 30 years in exploring such matters, the model of reality/illusion/consciousness/individuals etc. that I find most supportive  and surprisingly close to what I feel and experience as the truth is the one proposed by Robert Scheinfeld in his Busting Loose work. You might want to read his book - that would provide you with much more context and much more  profound answers to your questions than these very general statements of mine.
I could of course write my own book, but then, since he's done the work already, I'd rather spend my time writing fiction! :lol:

Warm greetings -</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jenny!</p>
<p>Oh my, these are big questions&#8230; they don&#8217;t get much bigger, do they? <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>As I see it, the only objective fact/reality is Infinite Consciousness and from my present perspective my understanding of it is - well, quite finite! <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
My role as in individual&#8230;hm&#8230; there are stages when my job is to act as separated from Consciousness and experience illusion and there are stages when my role is to re-connect with Consciousness and both create and experience illusion&#8230;</p>
<p>After spending some 30 years in exploring such matters, the model of reality/illusion/consciousness/individuals etc. that I find most supportive  and surprisingly close to what I feel and experience as the truth is the one proposed by Robert Scheinfeld in his Busting Loose work. You might want to read his book - that would provide you with much more context and much more  profound answers to your questions than these very general statements of mine.<br />
I could of course write my own book, but then, since he&#8217;s done the work already, I&#8217;d rather spend my time writing fiction! <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Warm greetings -</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-713</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-713</guid>
		<description>Hey Halina,
Thanks for responding.  Yes, I also am always amazed at how differently people can interpret the same word.  ;) Can you suffer through a few more questions? 

So, if Consciousness is rather like God and "there is only an infinite field of possibilites and what Consciousness makes out of it at any given “moment in time”' what role do you as an individual play in your life?  Do you believe objective facts have any relevance in your life/thinking or do you not believe objective facts exist in any form?  Do you believe that people have an independent "self" or "soul"?  

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Halina,<br />
Thanks for responding.  Yes, I also am always amazed at how differently people can interpret the same word.  <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> Can you suffer through a few more questions? </p>
<p>So, if Consciousness is rather like God and &#8220;there is only an infinite field of possibilites and what Consciousness makes out of it at any given “moment in time”&#8217; what role do you as an individual play in your life?  Do you believe objective facts have any relevance in your life/thinking or do you not believe objective facts exist in any form?  Do you believe that people have an independent &#8220;self&#8221; or &#8220;soul&#8221;?  </p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I&#8217;m interested in hearing your thoughts. <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Halina - Busting Loose</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-712</link>
		<dc:creator>Halina - Busting Loose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 07:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-712</guid>
		<description>Hi Jenny

Thanks for asking - and for reminding me that we (people in general) assign different meanings to the same words and that's part of our communication! :-)

To me Consciousness is all there is, the only reality that is. You could say that it's the same as God, or Oneness. So yes, it's certainly active, and infinitely more than what we experience as our personal consciousness/awareness or what some experience as "collective consciousness". I see each of us as different aspects or "parts" of that Consciousness... Separated and then again not separated...

Of course, it's rather limited how much of it I can understand with my "personal" consciousness, and it's rather impossible to talk about too - it's difficult to describe inner experiences in words.

:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jenny</p>
<p>Thanks for asking - and for reminding me that we (people in general) assign different meanings to the same words and that&#8217;s part of our communication! <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>To me Consciousness is all there is, the only reality that is. You could say that it&#8217;s the same as God, or Oneness. So yes, it&#8217;s certainly active, and infinitely more than what we experience as our personal consciousness/awareness or what some experience as &#8220;collective consciousness&#8221;. I see each of us as different aspects or &#8220;parts&#8221; of that Consciousness&#8230; Separated and then again not separated&#8230;</p>
<p>Of course, it&#8217;s rather limited how much of it I can understand with my &#8220;personal&#8221; consciousness, and it&#8217;s rather impossible to talk about too - it&#8217;s difficult to describe inner experiences in words.</p>
<p> <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-709</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 01:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-709</guid>
		<description>Hi Halina,
I am curious as to how you define consciousness and is there a reason you spell it with a capital C?  Do you view consciousness as something active (hence saying "...does indeed create what we believe...)?  If so, is it unique to each individual or do you ascribe it to the notion of a collective consciousness and that's why you capitalize it?  

Anyhow, thanks for commenting. :)

Mark,
I'm busy reading... ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Halina,<br />
I am curious as to how you define consciousness and is there a reason you spell it with a capital C?  Do you view consciousness as something active (hence saying &#8220;&#8230;does indeed create what we believe&#8230;)?  If so, is it unique to each individual or do you ascribe it to the notion of a collective consciousness and that&#8217;s why you capitalize it?  </p>
<p>Anyhow, thanks for commenting. <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Mark,<br />
I&#8217;m busy reading&#8230; <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Halina - Busting Loose</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-695</link>
		<dc:creator>Halina - Busting Loose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 06:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-695</guid>
		<description>Mark, yes I did mean quantum physicists  :lol:

Clearly, you know A LOT about this stuff and I apparently don't. What I do know, not from theory, not from books, but from direct experience is that Consciousness does indeed create what we believe to be reality, down to the smallest detail, including science, including this discussion. Science is indeed part of the Illusion. 

I appreciate your response and also I don't think it makes any sense to continue the discussion - we play different Games so to speak and are bound to see things very, very differently.
Which is beautiful!

If you're curious about what I mean by Games, Illusion etc. check out my website.

Many greetings -</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, yes I did mean quantum physicists  <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Clearly, you know A LOT about this stuff and I apparently don&#8217;t. What I do know, not from theory, not from books, but from direct experience is that Consciousness does indeed create what we believe to be reality, down to the smallest detail, including science, including this discussion. Science is indeed part of the Illusion. </p>
<p>I appreciate your response and also I don&#8217;t think it makes any sense to continue the discussion - we play different Games so to speak and are bound to see things very, very differently.<br />
Which is beautiful!</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re curious about what I mean by Games, Illusion etc. check out my website.</p>
<p>Many greetings -</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-693</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 03:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-693</guid>
		<description>Halina: Also, I believe you meant "quantum physicists" not "quantum physicians". Though the idea of quantum physicians is great; doctors healing patients at the quantum level. The ultimate in healing, even better than nanobots! (Ok, enough sci-fi for me...) Well, ultimate until we find out if there's something beyond the quantum level ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Halina: Also, I believe you meant &#8220;quantum physicists&#8221; not &#8220;quantum physicians&#8221;. Though the idea of quantum physicians is great; doctors healing patients at the quantum level. The ultimate in healing, even better than nanobots! (Ok, enough sci-fi for me&#8230;) Well, ultimate until we find out if there&#8217;s something beyond the quantum level <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-692</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-692</guid>
		<description>Halina: I feel I must point out that the suggestion that "quantum physicians realized that there is no such thing as an objective world" is not correct. There is the &lt;a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/"&gt;Copenhagen Interpretation&lt;/a&gt; of quantum mechanics, however the suggestion that it denies an objective world stems from misunderstanding, as does the suggestion that it states that consciousness affects reality. Those misunderstandings fueled both the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_causes_collapse"&gt;Consciousness causes collapse&lt;/a&gt; theory, which is what the rest of your comment suggests you're referring to, which is *not* considered a scientific theory, and the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_collapse_theory"&gt;Objective collapse theory&lt;/a&gt;, which is incomplete, but which *does* affirm that there is an objective reality, and that observers have no special role.

There are also the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation"&gt;many-worlds interpretations&lt;/a&gt; which reject the concept of waveform collapse, and those interpretations also have plenty of supporters and detractors.

But the main point is that the suggestion that consciousness has an effect on reality has *no* scientific backing. There may be scientists who agree with it, but that doesn't make it scientific, and it will remain unscientific until it is defined in testable terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Halina: I feel I must point out that the suggestion that &#8220;quantum physicians realized that there is no such thing as an objective world&#8221; is not correct. There is the <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-copenhagen/">Copenhagen Interpretation</a> of quantum mechanics, however the suggestion that it denies an objective world stems from misunderstanding, as does the suggestion that it states that consciousness affects reality. Those misunderstandings fueled both the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_causes_collapse">Consciousness causes collapse</a> theory, which is what the rest of your comment suggests you&#8217;re referring to, which is *not* considered a scientific theory, and the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_collapse_theory">Objective collapse theory</a>, which is incomplete, but which *does* affirm that there is an objective reality, and that observers have no special role.</p>
<p>There are also the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation">many-worlds interpretations</a> which reject the concept of waveform collapse, and those interpretations also have plenty of supporters and detractors.</p>
<p>But the main point is that the suggestion that consciousness has an effect on reality has *no* scientific backing. There may be scientists who agree with it, but that doesn&#8217;t make it scientific, and it will remain unscientific until it is defined in testable terms.</p>
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		<title>By: Halina</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-684</link>
		<dc:creator>Halina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-684</guid>
		<description>I like the "science is how we understand life". The statement doesn't really imply whether we really understand it or not. It just says: science describes HOW we understand it.

That idea that "Science is the language of rational thought and is grounded in an objective world view. It relies upon observation and repeated testing to form its truths. Its language is literal and fact based. " - doesn't really apply to science anymore. Not since quantum physicians realized that there is no such thing as an objective world,  objective observation, there is no such thing as matter and fact - there is only an infinite field of possibilites and what Consciousness makes out of it at any given "moment in time".

Science is part of the illusion that Consciousness creates - as is spirituality more or less. Consciousness (the ultimate, infinite consciousness) is the only "objective reality"... 
But then, what the bleep do we (k)now   :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the &#8220;science is how we understand life&#8221;. The statement doesn&#8217;t really imply whether we really understand it or not. It just says: science describes HOW we understand it.</p>
<p>That idea that &#8220;Science is the language of rational thought and is grounded in an objective world view. It relies upon observation and repeated testing to form its truths. Its language is literal and fact based. &#8221; - doesn&#8217;t really apply to science anymore. Not since quantum physicians realized that there is no such thing as an objective world,  objective observation, there is no such thing as matter and fact - there is only an infinite field of possibilites and what Consciousness makes out of it at any given &#8220;moment in time&#8221;.</p>
<p>Science is part of the illusion that Consciousness creates - as is spirituality more or less. Consciousness (the ultimate, infinite consciousness) is the only &#8220;objective reality&#8221;&#8230;<br />
But then, what the bleep do we (k)now   <img src='http://jenny-and-erin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Spirituality the root of all evil? - Personal Development for Smart People Forums</title>
		<link>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-145</link>
		<dc:creator>Spirituality the root of all evil? - Personal Development for Smart People Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 05:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://jenny-and-erin.com/2007/05/picking-sides-science-or-spirituality/#comment-145</guid>
		<description>[...] but I don't agree that either one is necessary for the other.  I take a different view, which Jenny summarised. Here's an excerpt: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] but I don&#8217;t agree that either one is necessary for the other.  I take a different view, which Jenny summarised. Here&#8217;s an excerpt: [&#8230;]</p>
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